Language

[radegund]

I swear a lot. No, really, a lot. I mean, not at work, or in other contexts where it isn't appropriate, but in general conversation I'm usually among the most foul-mouthed participants. I get it mainly from my father. Also my teddy-bear, who used to turn the air blue - in fact, I got put out on the stairs (the all-purpose punishment in our house) on numerous occasions for things that Flaubert had said.

So now I'm wondering: should I tone it down when my son is learning to talk? What do you think?

[Poll #368139]

Please expand on your answer below!

Comments

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

I vote "yes", as an equally foul-mouthed person soon to be in a similar position. I think teaching a child to swear belongs somewhat later than teaching them to talk, generally, though I fully intend to teach effective and creative swearing at an appropriate time.

[radegund.livejournal.com]

I'm still torn (yep, I'm replying to a two-week-old comment - that's new motherhood for you!). On the one hand, I agree that swearing is a separate skill, to be learnt later, but on the other hand, I don't think I want to make a big issue out of it.

Sociolinguistically, aren't women much more likely to care about such things? We want our children to grow up with successful linguistic strategies, and we take responsibility for teaching them. Or is that an oversimplification?

[radegund.livejournal.com]

My father swears all the time; my mother rarely. (But when she does, it's fuckin' effective!) I don't have any problem swearing around them, and was never told not to. My grandmother, mind you, is another matter.

I have a feeling that if we make an issue out of swearing, Oisín will pick up on it as a way to transgress, and we might have a bigger problem on our hands than if we take a more laissez faire approach.

[gothwalk.livejournal.com]

I've never heard you swear in a situation where I wouldn't, and I really don't do so much. I don't think your usage is nearly as bad as you think it is. I'd hold that it's good practice for him to have heard things a few times, and equally good practice to educate him as soon as possible on where it's appropriate, and where it's not.

[radegund.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking you may be right. Demystification. Kids pick up on taboos very quickly, in my experience, and delight in breaking them.

[biascut.livejournal.com]

I think it'll happen automatically. Either you'll feel bad about swearing in front of him or you won't: either's fine, though!

[radegund.livejournal.com]

So far, I don't. But it may be different when he starts talking... (Yes, I'm replying to two-week-old comments here. Do I lose my LJ licence?)

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Moderate your language in front of your kid if you're disturbed about hearing him swear.

Otherwise, just explain to him that there are circumstances in which he can use some words, and circumstances in which he can't, and trust this lesson sinks in before he swears in front of someone who will be disturbed and whose opinion you care about.

[radegund.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure that's the approach my parents took. They swear (my father frequently; my mother rarely), and I don't ever remember being forbidden to use any particular words by them. (The putting-out-on-the-stairs incident involved my grandmother.) I think the lesson sank in anyway - kids learn pretty much everything from context, after all.

[kasku.livejournal.com]

I haven't picked because I'm in the same boat and have no idea how to quit swearing!

[radegund.livejournal.com]

No - it'd be hard, wouldn't it? And a rather weird exercise, at that.

(Replying to two-week-old comments, yes. I'm sure you'll understand...)

[kasku.livejournal.com]

Of course! How are things going?

[radegund.livejournal.com]

Pretty well, really, but I lack reserve energy. Niall had a really hectic week the week before last, and I found it very hard not having him on tap in the evenings. I overdid it on the home-maintenance front last weekend, too. Much calmer more recently, though.

(I'm still in awe of you, of course, for managing All This plus a house move! Various extremities crossed on your behalf...)

[kasku.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Don't be - I turned insane a couple of weeks ago now. :-)

[radegund.livejournal.com]

I think that's kind of cool too. I'm still torn on the substantive issue, though (and so is my flist, interestingly - 7 each way). I strongly agree with you about not protecting kids from "damaging" thoughts.

[drowned-books.livejournal.com]

I'd have to say yes, because they do pick up on swearwords - they have a kind of inbuilt radar for picking up on 'rude' words! I mean, it's just embarrassing if your kids start swearing - and hearing my son going 'fuck fuck fuck fuck' in the car was just plain weird. Plus I didn't want him to get told off at playgroup/school for swearing. Personally I swear quite happily in the privacy of my own home and in appropriate company, but I have to say it gets up my nose when people swear loudly in front of children, and hearing little kids swear is actually pretty gross...

[drowned-books.livejournal.com]

Personally I swear quite happily in the privacy of my own home - but only when the kids have gone to bed, I should add :-)

[radegund.livejournal.com]

Well, I reckon he'll hear the words whether I say them or not. And no doubt he'll pick up that they're taboo, too. Young kids learn pretty much everything from context, after all. I'm still torn - which probably means I'll make a half-hearted effort, but not manage to cut out swearing entirely :-)

[ailbhe]

I say yes, because I dislike swearing unless I *know* the person has enough vocab to have chosen the words voluntarily. Teach him words like "puerile" and "ineffectual" before "crap" and "fuckwit"; you'll be able to tell when he's old enough to choose his words appropriately and reintroduce them.

If you ever swear *at* him and fail to immediately apologise, I will disown you. I strongly disapprove of swearing at people unless they enjoy it, in which case they ought to pay someone to do it.

"Mammy," (lisped sweetly on the number 46A bus at rush hour), "why is it ok for you to say Fucking Gobshites but I'm not allowed?"

A.
Cautionary Tales R Us

[radegund.livejournal.com]

If you ever swear *at* him and fail to immediately apologise, I will disown you.

Agreed.

"Mammy," (lisped sweetly on the number 46A bus at rush hour), "why is it ok for you to say Fucking Gobshites but I'm not allowed?"

See, my anti-authoritarian side is inclined to answer, "You're right, that's hypocritical. OK, from now on, you're allowed to use whatever words you feel best express what you want to say. Just be aware that swear words will evoke an unpleasant reaction in certain contexts. I'll happily discuss this issue with you, any time, because I find language fascinating."

Kids know all about context. And mine will probably grow up insufferable misfits, just like their mammy was when she was small :-)

[ailbhe]

My point is that you may want to stop swearing in front of him until he's old enough to appreciate context, because I doubt you think it's approriate for him to beam charmingly at the nice lady behind the counter and say "e'o, fu'in hoor!" and banning him while allowing you will result in conversations that draw public attention to your hypocrisy.

[pleidhce.livejournal.com]

Swearing is passionate taboo language, one of the riches linguistic life has to offer, an induction into society. Children learn about usage and taboos very early and make their own decisions. The alternative is learning the words in a way that over-mystifies them, makes them feel dark and dirty. Mostly, curse-words refer to the body or to family relationships, and getting the full gamut of all the possible registers to talk about these things at the beginning of life removes the trace of shame associated with them. Swearing is linguistic nakedness, and I find it hard to think that that sort of modesty is good for hatchlings.

[radegund.livejournal.com]

I'm inclined to think you're right, partly because that's how I was brought up. But I swear much more freely than "passionate taboo language" implies. Most common swear words have little or no shock value for me. Maybe what I'll do is try to resensitise myself: use swear words when they effectively express my meaning, and not just as punctuation.

That said, there are words that I would hate my child to use - "gay" as an insult, for instance, or "spa", which I've always viscerally detested. So I can be shocked. Probably those are the ones he'll go for, then...

[yiskah.livejournal.com]

I think fuck no, but perhaps it is a question of whether you think he is likely to have meaningful (to him and/or you) contact with people likely to be offended by the swearing before he is old enough to have an idea of appropriateness. Does that make any sense?

[radegund.livejournal.com]

Yes it does, and other than his great-grandmother, there isn't anyone who would be particularly offended. She knows I'm a lost cause, language-wise, though, and I don't think she'd really hold it against us or him. He'll hear the words whether I use them or not, of course, so to some extent the question is irrelevant.

[kulfuldi.livejournal.com]

I'm a fan of good expressive swearing myself, but I'm sometimes embarassed to find myself using absent-minded obscenities in inappropriate situations, such as at work, or in the company of other people's elderly relatives (my own elderly relatives are, in general, admirably broadminded).

Personally, as an opinionated person with no children, I think 'swearing' is a separate skill and pleasure from 'talking', and as such should be introduced by parents at a different date, when a child is old enough to appreciate it properly. Or possibly his schoolfriends will introduce swearing in the shade of the proverbial Bikeshed, shortly before they pass around the Pornographic Magazines. And what's so wrong with that?

I don't think you need to be prudish, but if your son swears unconsciously from his earliest infancy, will you not be robbing him of the pleasing (though now somewhat dulled for most of us) sensation of breaking a mild taboo? The pleasant frisson of breaking taboos is one of the few unequivocally good things that an Irish Catholic upbringing gives you (though belting out 'Hail Glorious St. Patrick' is also kind of fun, in a kitschy way) and if your son is not to have a Catholic upbringing (and I somehow suspect he will not) he may want a few little taboos to break, so he doesn't miss out on that great Irish cultural experience.

[radegund.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure you can be so scheduled about it, though - it'd be rather odd to stop swearing for five years and then suddenly start again. (And what if he had a younger sibling by then? We'd have to check if it was in earshot every time we opened our beaks!) If breaking taboos floats his boat, I'm sure he'll find ways. You know, he'll put biodegradable matter in the landfill bin, go to GAA matches, join the PDs...

[ailbhe]

I'd think he could tell context from about 2, rather than 5, to be honest - possibly earlier. You'll know yourself.